Piston blogger roundtable: AI or Rip as the 6th?
Posted by pistonsnationPN has gathered some of the best Pistons’ bloggers to discuss a single but pressing question, WHICH SG SHOULD COME OFF THE BENCH?
At the start of the season we were all saying what a great a combination we had off the bench with Stuckey and Dice. Well, the Iverson trade scrapped those plans. We’ve all seen how starting three guards in an unorthodox a small-ball lineup does not work for the Pistons. Rip’s injury forced (thankfully) Michael Curry to go to a more traditional lineup and the Pistons are playing better on both ends of the ball (HT: Rodney Stuckey).
Here’s a cross section of bloggers and their opinions on whom should be Dice’s bench BFF?
Who wouldn’t want to come off the bench with this guy?
Natalie Sitto of Need 4 Sheed:
Rip should take the hit on this one and do what’s best for the team. His injury may have been a blessing in disguise to help Curry put an end to the small ball experiment, so why change what’s working?
Hamilton just hasn’t been himself since Chauncey was moved and I don’t know if his All Star style of play is suited for a sixth man role right now, but he’s better fit for the move than Iverson is. Rip is also more familiar with his teammates and will do well alongside Afflalo,which should take off some of the burden of playing defense and allow him to concentrate on scoring, so he can get back into his groove.
Iverson is just getting comfortable playing Detroit’s style of play, how do you ask a player like AI who can take over games with a blink of an eye that is upset if he plays less than 40 mpg sit when he’s being productive? It’s a win, lose – lose, win situation that just might work.
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Pistons Cast:
Rip should go to the bench because he is not comfortable right now because he still misses Chauncey. Rip should not consider this a demotion because we believe he can be the Manu Ginobili of the East. Rip is underrated in creating his own offense and being able to distribute. Example, when you watch Rip on the fast break he is great at breaking his man down and or making a great pass. Rip should look at the bench as a challenge to help us take down Boston.
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Isaac of The World of Isaac:
AI needs to come off the bench. It makes the most sense. The Pistons have been hurt this year because their interior defense has been borderline Don Nelson-esque. Rasheed is not as athletic as he once was and so you combine that with an undersized Tayshaun Prince at PF, and we are going to get killed down the stretch.
Play Amir at the 4. Give us a legitimate guy underneath who wants to rebound and block shots. Bringing AI off the bench is going to cause a problem, but in the long run, who cares. He’s not going to be with the team next year anyways.
Somebody needs to just get in his ear and tell him he’ll be the Microwave off the bench. That, or just start posting pics of him playing poker at the casino the night before games.
Either way is fine with me.
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Chris Thompson of Hardcore Detroit Fan:
That is a great question, and I have never really thought about it. But, I would have to choose Rip to come off the bench simply because Rodney Stuckey and AI have been working so well together out on the court right now that you can’t interrupt that.
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Looks like it’s Rip 3-1. With a seven game winning streak, most of that without Hamilton, that choice makes sense. Here’s my opinion as stated in this post, and I’m still good staying with it despite the team’s recent improvement:
Start Stuckey but either Allen Iverson or Rip Hamilton needs to go to the bench. They don’t compliment each other at all. I’m sure it’d be tough for either of those two to accept. I personally would want Iverson coming off the pine. He could play his game better with a hustle group. Have Afflalo and Herrmann out there for a perimeter touch when the double and triple teams come. Meanwhile Rip and co. could get back to running the Ripster off screens. Besides that Rip just signed a 3 year extension, where I’d be willing to bet it’s a one and done for AI.
…And, just for some good measure here’s a couple local msm takes on the topic:
Jamie Samuelson of the Detroit Free Press: So if the Pistons have to adjust their lineup once Richard Hamilton is healthy, they have to do so in such a way that Stuckey starts and plays as many minutes as possible. And if that means bringing Rip off the bench, so be it. It’s partially a coincidence that the Pistons have won all five games with Hamilton out of the lineup. They’ve played some awful teams who they should beat with or without Rip. But it’s also allowed Stuckey and Allen Iverson to function as normal guards.
Dana Guaruder of the Oakland Press: When he’s ready to return, Rip needs to make a sacrifice. For the better of the team, he needs to be the first guard off the bench.
That’s a lot to ask of a player who has been an All-Star the last three years. But with the current state of the roster, Hamilton would be doing Michael Curry and his teammates a big favor and bring some cohesion to the rotation.
After winning seven straight, the Pistons obviously are better when they play a conventional lineup. Rodney Stuckey needs to remain the starting point and Amir Johnson has to stay in the starting frontcourt to solidify the team’s interior defense and rebounding. The Pistons have zoomed up the NBA’s defensive charts since they virtually scrapped their small ball tactics.
I don’t think Allen Iverson would work well as a sixth man – he’s too used to playing heavy minutes and needs that extra time to get into a groove. But how about having Hamilton and Antonio McDyess as your sixth and seventh men? Tell me that doesn’t make them a legitimate championship contender.
Here’s how Curry should approach it. Start Sheed, Tay, Amir, AI and Stuckey. Bring in Hamilton and Arron Afflalo late in the first quarter for AI and Prince. When Stuckey needs a rest, send AI and Prince back in to handle the ball.
McDyess and Jason Maxiell would play most of the second quarter up front.
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SOOO, What do you think Pistons Nation???
Tags: Allen Iverson, Antonio McDyess, Detroit Pistons, Rip Hamilton, vector art
This entry was posted on Thursday, January 8th, 2009 at 1:03 pm and is filed under Allen Iverson, Fanalyzed, Rip Hamilton. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.
Had we gone 2-3 during this stretch rather than 5-0 (until Portland) without Rip, I wonder what everyone would be saying.
Since the trade happened, I’ve been an advocate of bringing AI off the bench, so he can have free reign with the second unit – and I still think that makes the most sense.
Starting Rip gives us the most continuity in the present and makes sense if we assume AI won’t be around as long as Rip. It only makes sense to give Rip and Stuckey as many minutes together as possible so they learn to play well together. Moreover, it also gives us size and better defense to begin games.
Bringing AI off the bench makes sense when one considers our second unit. If we give AI more freedom and more time with the ball, he’s in his element. I applaud him for the adjustments he’s made thus far, but those adjustments have been necessary because of the awkwardness of our lineups.
Consider how our second unit is constituted and how well-suited each player is with AI’s game. Afflalo is a great defender and is becoming a very good shooter. Hermann (when he plays) is a good shooter, a hustler, and a good defender. Dyess is a terrific shooter for a big man and hits the offensive boards as hard as anyone on the roster. Maxiell is a great finisher around the basket, a good defender, and is able to run with AI and finish on the break. When Sheed is out there with the second unit, he can spread the floor at the five spot, which clears space for AI and can knock down a shot from just about anywhere after AI breaks down the defense. When Tay plays with the second unit, he gives a post-up option, a ball-handler, and a solid shooter from the perimeter. And we all know about his defensive capabilities.
Plus, consider AI attacking the opposing squad’s second unit. A career 27+ PPG scorer against anyone’s B squad is a match-up that favors us.
So, in a nutshell, I disagree with the bloggers, mostly because I think they are too caught up in the present winning streak to be unbiased. Rip and Stuckey are our future – or at least they appear to be. AI might be the spark that ignites a Detroit run in the playoffs, but it’s unlikely that he will be around much longer than that, unless he’s willing to take a significant pay cut.
For the good of our present, and for the good of our future, it makes the most sense to bring AI off the bench in the Manu role. He will spark the second unit, thrive with the ball in his hands, create shots for those around him, and give the opposing squad’s second unit fits.
It just makes sense.
January 8th, 2009 at 2:22 pmI’m right there with you BG.
I don’t understand why so few writers have noticed how well our second unit meshes with AI’s traditional style of play. It seems so obvious to me.
And I’m not at all convinced that Rip will be effective with the second unit.
January 8th, 2009 at 2:43 pm[...] PistonsNation hosted a blogger roundtable debating whether Rip Hamilton or Allen Iverson should go to the bench once Rip returns from his torn groin. I’ve stated my case for AI several times, but either one is better than returning to small ball. [...]
January 8th, 2009 at 4:13 pmHonestly you have to look at how these players have played ball. Rip neeeeeds someone to distribute the ball where he needs it and when…AI is a scorer like stuckey, therefore not needing anyone to give him the ball! SO, let stuckey start with rip and AI come off the bench leaving him the 1st option like he’s been his whole career. A place where he will feel wayy more comfortable…
January 8th, 2009 at 5:06 pm[...] Pistonsnation hosted a blogger roundtable this week on whether AI or RIP should go to the bench. You know how Pistonscast feels but check out what some of the other Pistons bloggers had to say. [...]
January 8th, 2009 at 7:19 pmit’s illogical to play ai and stuckey together so much. they both need the ball in their hands to be truly effective. the fact that no one is pointing out this OBVIOUS fact seems strange to me.
rip’s game is custom made to play alongside a drive and dish pg like stuckey. he’s also a way better defender, which makes ai’s steals irrelevent.
last, think of the efficiency or rip coming off two staggered screens. think about how many years we’ve been successful starting every possession with that play. think about it the next time you see ai dribble away ten seconds and throw up an off-balance shot over two defenders.
ai is clutch, i don’t deny that. but i also think he has to work twice as hard to do the offensive work rip does. i also don’t think he’ll ever truly believe in this team, or anyone other than himself for that matter.
it was cool when he was taking last second shots, but he was getting decent shots each time. i think the portland game shows that, at least for the time being, he still thinks he’s the only one on his team who can make a big shot. that is absolutely wrong and will make beating high level teams almost impossible.
January 8th, 2009 at 7:54 pmI know that Rip hasn’t been himself since Chauncey but I want to know did everyone have a problem with Rip before Chauncey left or after?? Even though AI is a great player, sometimes he hold the ball when he should pass and let Rod set up the offense. The offense looks a whole lot better when Rip is in the line-up. When AI is in the line-up, the O seems a little stagnant. Also, his turnovers are in crucial situations. Like, he should’ve passed the ball when he stepped out of bounds (TWICE) and a traveling violation and these turnovers were happening when the Blazers were making their run last night.
January 8th, 2009 at 8:22 pmwell said BG. I completely agree. Having AI and Stuckey on the court gives us mismatches against a lot of the bigger more athletic back courts. and defensively we’re too weak on the inside. Start Rip and Amir.
AI can still get plenty of minutes but they will be minutes where he is the go-to scorer, which suits him a lot more.
January 8th, 2009 at 11:04 pmrip always starts out seasons slow. then switching to a new pg slowed his recovery a little. he was doing just fine before his injury.
January 8th, 2009 at 11:48 pmAny real Piston fan should know that if Rip comes off the bench he will not be effective so why are you asking for this? Rip has to start so that he can get into the rhythm he needs to play his game. He is NOT Ginobili or Vinnie Johnson so do not ask him to be. And the last time he was asked to come off the bench his response went something like “…and I am not going to be one of the Bleeping Jordanettes!!….
January 9th, 2009 at 4:15 ammy oh my…rip should come off the bench..A.I. is A.I. so do Rip .but Iverson should start due to his hustle and scoring ability.
January 9th, 2009 at 4:46 amThe Pistons need a spark on the court and obviously ..THE ANSWER will get it going..
Rip needs to come off the bench he could be like a Vinnie Johnson. Chaunceys trade has shown how dependent Rip was on him. If Allen is allowed to play his game with Stuckey orchestrating, and rip could have Bynum running the point for hiom they would in effect be a two headed monster
January 9th, 2009 at 9:33 amFor those advocating bringing Rip off the bench, I say the following:
You are being too short-sighted. The Pistons are not a championship caliber team – not right now, at least not yet.
Rip, Stuckey, Tayshaun, Maxiel, Amir, perhaps Aflalo — that group of guys appear to be our future. If we can add the right players around that group – someone like ‘Sheed in his younger years with the Pistons – then perhaps we can be again.
For that reason, it makes sense to get those guys as many minutes as they can together in roles that they will fill in the future. Stuckey and Rip at 1 and 2 is almost certainly our starting backcourt for next two years after this one. Why would we not build as much chemistry between them as we can?
Let the second unit thrive with AI, and perhaps that will be enough power to pull an upset in the playoffs. If not, then at least we are building chemistry for the future.
January 9th, 2009 at 11:32 amMy thing is why invest so much of our resources into Iverson? Does anyone feel like he (sans Chauncey) was the missing piece to this team getting back to the Finals? He doesn’t fit the mold no matter how much pressure Curry is under to feature him.
What are the odds of Iverson returning? Not nearly as good as the contractually urged Hamilton. Starting Iverson is basically saying to Rip- we’re giving the temp your desk, here’s a nice cubical for you at the back of the office.
I’m with you, at least for the most part. However, I don’t think it’s impossible for AI to re-sign. I think that will depend on three factors.
1. What does Joe D. think our future is? Is it a complete rebuilding phase that will eliminate us from championship competition for a few years? Or, is he willing to sign some veterans to short deals in order to compete in the free agent market of 2010?
2. How this line-up works in the playoffs. In a seven-game series, no one will want to play Detroit. The addition of AI gives us a scorer who can explode for 40-50 points on any given night. That in itself is scary, but when combined with the continuing improvement of our young players and the experience of our older players, it just might be a deadly combo.
All it would take is for AI, Rip, or Stuckey to get hot for a few games, and we can beat anyone in a best of seven scenario.
3. Assuming #2 becomes a reality (which it might not), will AI be willing to play for a contender for a short-term deal that doesn’t pay as much as he’s used to?
It seems likely that AI is here for this year only, but it’s not impossible that he’s here for a longer stint than we realize. A lot is yet to be determined with this Pistons roster. It’s not unthinkable that we could remain hot and finish the season winning 7 out of every 10 games. If that happens, and if we can make a run in the playoffs, then all bets are off, I think.
Not to mention, Joe D has always held his cards close to the chest. He might be planning something that none of us could anticipate.
And oh yeah, the trade deadline isn’t here yet either…
January 9th, 2009 at 2:32 pm“2. How this line-up works in the playoffs. In a seven-game series, no one will want to play Detroit. The addition of AI gives us a scorer who can explode for 40-50 points on any given night. That in itself is scary, but when combined with the continuing improvement of our young players and the experience of our older players, it just might be a deadly combo.”
That could happen but the playoffs are all about defense. It’s not all that common for guys to go off like that because teams dial in defensively.
Speaking of which, I think that is the area we need improvement in to be successful. Our wins are so close because we can’t get stops and hold these double digit leads. And, it’s no secret that that’s an area where Iverson has never been ‘The Answer’
I agree completely, which is part of my argument for moving AI to the sixth man role. With Stuckey and Rip in the back court together, and with Amir protecting the basket with Sheed and Tay, we are no doubt a better team defensively. Obviously, that makes us a better team in the playoffs.
But, consider bringing AI off the bench. Obviously, he’s playing with our second unit. But perhaps more importantly, he is going against the other team’s second unit.
Your point is a valid one about defense in the playoffs, and its implications are clear, in my opinion. We need to shore up defensively, and we do that by starting a traditional lineup and by bring AI off the bench. The second implication becomes clear because our starting lineup has not been the problem come playoff time. Our bench has struggled when teams turn up the defensive pressure. Enter Allen Iverson.
January 9th, 2009 at 3:47 pmWhy are Pistons fans so protective of Rip’s ego?
January 9th, 2009 at 6:34 pmnot only would i say we’re not protecting rip’s ego, we’re protecting ai’s. i think on of the reasons this is such a debate is that the logical choice is to bring ai off the bench (we’re starting stuckey and him playing alongside ai is silly, they have almost exactly the same game), but the general belief is that if we ask ai to be the sixth man he’ll take his ball and go home till the season ends and his contract expires.
January 9th, 2009 at 9:01 pmJohn W. Davis:
One thing about Pistons fans – we are loyal.
I don’t deny that I’m biased toward Rip at all. But I don’t think that bias completely undermines what I’ve said.
Think about the contracts, if nothing else: AI is here through this year. Rip will be here for years to come.
Rip has been here for years. He won a championship wearing Piston blue 32. I realize how cheesy that sounds, but that’s how we think – take it or leave it.
We’ve embraced AI as much as we can, but it takes time for us to fully embrace a player who so completely changes the way we play the game.
Detroit has played Bad Boy style basketball since I was just a toddler, and I’ve watched them since I was in diapers.
In short, we love our Pistons, and it’s tough for us to accept the change, even if it means we win more games in the future.
January 9th, 2009 at 9:14 pmthe 2004 championship means as little to me in this debate as ai’s mvp or scoring title. what does matter to me is who is going to work better with stuckey, who seems to be cut out of the sixth man debate. ai is so similar to stuckey, it’s stupid to play them together. i appreciate that ai is doing what he can to fit our system, but he’s not actually being that successful the majority of the time, he’s just looking that way because he’s making big clutch shots towards end of games.
SO, doesn’t it seem obvious we should start rip, who is custom fit to play alongside stuckey instead of a player that is virtually the same, who will be competing with stuckey for touches instead of making stuckey look good, which is what rip will do.
rip starts, ai finishes. probably with stuckey on the bench.
January 10th, 2009 at 6:24 pmHmmmm. You Pistons fans are SMART…. Kinda makes me wanna i took back my comment about “starting them both”…. Lol! xD
January 10th, 2009 at 11:48 pm@BG: yeah, moving AI to the bench is the obvious move, hence it probably won’t be done. Let’s hope Curry doesn’t eschew that because of Rip’s comments painting him into a corner (btw: Rip was part of the squad that defined “Detroit Basketball” over the last 6 years, he should act like it. That comment is worth benching him, were he not so much better suited for the starting lineup.)
I’ve been waiting all fall to see AI killing it with the zoo crew, I think it would be tons of fun to watch him cream 2nd unit defenses all night. That’s such a strong crew it would get more minutes than a standard bench anyway…
January 13th, 2009 at 12:37 pm